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Thread: Rick Schwartz auctioning Flowers.mobi with no reserve

  1. #151
    Senior Member ChinaMobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limomobi View Post
    What is CVCV?
    Consonant Vowel Consonant Vowel domains, e.g. bade. Details here: http://www.protycoon.com/investing-i...names-and-why/

  2. #152
    Senior Member gogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres Kello View Post

    I'd like to see anyone today who has picked .mobi winners even 50% or 25% of the time. It's just not happening because luck is driving the market more than anything else since there is virtually no demand for the extension - not from speculators and not from end-users. I would also argue that the people who have been able to recently sell a few LLL.mobi's (out of over 17,000) for $5,000 got quite lucky because an end-user just happened to want that particular domain. Other than that, there hasn't been much news in the past year regarding significant .mobi sales, and the few that we did hear about looked like complete outliers.

    There is a big difference between domaining in .com and in .mobi: there are domainers today actually making money domaining in .com.
    Yes I agree the demand is not there. Wishful thinking saying .mobi will succeed because mobile is big, or because markets are cyclical, misses the point: there have to be customers.

    If a keyword is desirable, sooner or later someone will want the .com or countrycode. You can't say that about .mobi.

    .Mobi may be on the downward slope now - for many reasons, not just one atypical transaction. If someone loses $200k on the stockmarket so what, as long as it is not their life savings they are playing with. Buying mobis could be investing, gambling, a collectors hobby, a way to pass the time, a delusional activity... but it is definitely not acquiring stock for which there are known to be customers.

  3. #153
    Senior Member GijsZePa's Avatar
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    What I still can't understand is that you can pay 200K without blinking your eyes...and still don't want to invest 25K to make a killer website with the same name. Cooperate with a large flowercompany etc etc...

    Incredible

    Martin
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  4. #154
    Senior Member gogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GijsZePa View Post
    What I still can't understand is that you can pay 200K without blinking your eyes...and still don't want to invest 25K to make a killer website with the same name. Cooperate with a large flowercompany etc etc...
    Hi that is a key point. The classic domainer looks around for domains thinking "Can I buy this for less than I can sell it for? Are there possible buyers? How can I maximise the resale price?". Development is an added cost and an added risk, even if it can add value. So you end up with parking.

    Your point has me wondering if there are groups that approach valuable domain holders offering to develop their domains and find partners, affiliates and so on.

  5. #155
    Senior Member GijsZePa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    Your point has me wondering if there are groups that approach valuable domain holders offering to develop their domains and find partners, affiliates and so on.
    Great Idea !!

    Maybe build some marketplace where you can bring both together. Both invest. One with money, One with their skills. Both will earn if succesfull

    Martin
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  6. #156
    Senior Member ChinaMobi's Avatar
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    This approach is used in property investment, so it may work in domain investment as well.

  7. #157
    Administrator Andres Kello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scandiman View Post
    I honestly don't understand how anyone can argue there is no money to be made domaining in .mobi when you also say this one paragraph earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by Andres
    I .... was even offered six-figures this year for a .mobi I paid less than $3,000 for
    Because "making money" means taking out more from .mobi than you put in, so even if I had sold that domain, I would still be deep in the red with my .mobi investment and with no current possibility of making money overall even if I sold my entire portfolio today.

    It is also technically possible to make a profit buying a scratch card, but would you seriously argue that you can "make money" with scratch cards? Because that's what you seem to be arguing: that if one scratch card can make you a profit, then you can actually "make money" investing in scratch cards, which is completely ridiculous because - just like gambling at a casino - it's a negative expectations game where any wins will eventually be overtaken by losses since the odds are against you.

    That is why we can't find a single example of anyone consistently making money today domaining in .mobi. mjnels was probably the most prolific and successful .mobi domainer in the short history of the extension, but that's because he got in early and got out early, and played the drops before Pool and Snap stepped in. Where is the most successful .mobi domainer now? He's moved on to greener pastures since he's not interested in development and has realized - like most of us - that there is no longer any money to be made domaining in .mobi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scandiman
    Assuming the lowest six-figure offer of $100,000 you would have netted about $97,000 on one .mobi in this terribly depressed market. Congrats on choosing (and striving for) quality .mobi domain names, I don't think luck had much to do with it.
    Luck actually had everything to do with this particular domain because I had no idea city .mobi's were reserved when I back-ordered a bunch of them on Pool the night before Landrush, and this particular geo was inexplicably (and luckily!) left off the reserved list, with very few buyers vying for it at auction since most had assumed it was reserved and therefore didn't bother to back-order it. My luck, in this case, was my ignorance. So I was lucky that I did not know that City .mobi's had been reserved. I was lucky that most people did. I was lucky that this particular one had actually been left off of the Reserved list. And I was lucky that the only back-ordering service I used caught it before anyone else did. That's another reason why I consider that domain example an outlier.




    And yes, folks, I went there: investing in .mobi domains without development is no different today to investing in scratch cards. Good luck and I really hope you all have a winner on your hands!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GijsZePa View Post
    Great Idea !!

    Maybe build some marketplace where you can bring both together. Both invest. One with money, One with their skills. Both will earn if succesfull

    Martin

    Great idea.... until you look at the scales.

    On one side you have the skilled developer with time and funds to invest (worth $thousands)

    On the other side you have a dotmobi domain name...... (worth a few cents)

    Therein lies the problem!

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres Kello View Post
    No one is talking about full portfolio sales. Ignoring portfolio costs, however, is not a true measurement of whether money can be made domaining in an extension, particularly when those maintenance and acquisition costs outweigh the sum of any individual profits.

    I'd like to see anyone today who has picked .mobi winners even 50% or 25% of the time. It's just not happening because luck is driving the market more than anything else since there is virtually no demand for the extension - not from speculators and not from end-users. I would also argue that the people who have been able to recently sell a few LLL.mobi's (out of over 17,000) for $5,000 got quite lucky because an end-user just happened to want that particular domain. Other than that, there hasn't been much news in the past year regarding significant .mobi sales, and the few that we did hear about looked like complete outliers.

    There is a big difference between domaining in .com and in .mobi: there are domainers today actually making money domaining in .com. That doesn't mean there aren't people losing money, but there are plenty of people making money (and a living!), which is simply not the case with .mobi. So I don't think that's a good example.

    I also bought in at the lowest historical trough and was even offered six-figures this year for a .mobi I paid less than $3,000 for, yet I still argue that there is no money to be made domaining in .mobi because that one is also an outlier as it is one of the very few that has received any interest at all and I own one of the very best .mobi portfolios in the world. As for other perspectives, the only perspective that matters is whether there is money currently being made domaining in .mobi, and there isn't.

    I honestly don't understand how anyone can argue that there is money to be made domaining in .mobi when there are no current examples, nothing to suggest the downward trend is reversing or that things will change in the future, and we just experienced perhaps the worst ROI of any six-figure domain in any extension.
    I think there are several 'heads buried in sand' around here Andres ;-)

    Truth is that I chose to drop 2,000 domains.... including ones worth $10,000 at some point in the future...... because it is impossible to know which ones they were and the cost of renewing all 2,000 on the basis that 2,000 scratch cards are better than one is a flawed theory (one that my bank balance is testament too).

    Buy to order or Buy to develop...... that's all I would now advise anyone.

  10. #160
    Senior Member noonoo1's Avatar
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    Nice to see you back Gary


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    Senior Member gogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newdomainer View Post
    Great idea.... until you look at the scales.

    On one side you have the skilled developer with time and funds to invest (worth $thousands)

    On the other side you have a dotmobi domain name...... (worth a few cents)

    Therein lies the problem!
    Hi Gary there certainly are issues - check out this older thread on partnerships http://mobility.mobi/showthread.php?...ht=partnership

    But my sudden idea wasn't about .mobi or people working for free. Essentially you have three parties - the idle domain owner of a top domain, the agency who are an intermediary, and the people with something to sell via the web. The agency can buy development services (from a fourth party) if it needs them, but really what it has to do is find the two other parties and show them that they can earn. To do that it needs real examples and metrics to point to, not pie in the sky promises of a share in some earnings that may never happen.

    I don't have time to waste trying to lasso unicorns, but this is an interesting area imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaMobi View Post
    This approach is used in property investment, so it may work in domain investment as well.
    Can you tell us more?
    Last edited by gogo; 10-21-2010 at 12:46 PM.

  12. #162
    Senior Member GijsZePa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newdomainer View Post
    On one side you have the skilled developer with time and funds to invest (worth $thousands)
    On the other side you have a dotmobi domain name...... (worth a few cents)
    !
    Sorry..wasn't exacly pointing to .mobi domains, but domain names in general (some worth millions)..

    Martin
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  13. #163
    Mobility Regular FilipinoFood.com's Avatar
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    `
    Last edited by FilipinoFood.com; 11-20-2010 at 04:30 AM.
    HTML Code:
    <iframe width=100% height=300 name="webchat" src="http://widget.mibbit.com/?settings=de9a2e413dbb2d2bd2dd11f47d5e3df9&server=irc.Mibbit.Net&channel=%23webmasterradio&autoConnect=true&nick=WMR%3F%3F%3F"></iframe>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres Kello View Post
    That is why we can't find a single example of anyone consistently making money today domaining in .mobi. mjnels was probably the most prolific and successful .mobi domainer in the short history of the extension, but that's because he got in early and got out early, and played the drops before Pool and Snap stepped in. Where is the most successful .mobi domainer now? He's moved on to greener pastures since he's not interested in development and has realized - like most of us - that there is no longer any money to be made domaining in .mobi.

    i think there are people that made more and spent less time.. i just took one of the safest methods.. coulda made a ton if i wouldn't have bought as many $xxx to $x,xxx names but during that time trading up some better stuff didnt seem like too bad of an idea.. still have 50+ mobi's which is about how many i originally bought in the first few days of landrush..

    i can tell there are different definitions for "domaining" being used in this thread..


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    Administrator Andres Kello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjnels View Post
    i think there are people that made more and spent less time.. i just took one of the safest methods.. coulda made a ton if i wouldn't have bought as many $xxx to $x,xxx names but during that time trading up some better stuff didnt seem like too bad of an idea.. still have 50+ mobi's which is about how many i originally bought in the first few days of landrush..
    Always great to see you here, Matt. Perhaps there were others who made more money in less time, but no one did it as consistently as you did, and that counts for a lot. Anyone can get lucky selling a handful of domains in a short amount of time, but fewer people can do it as consistently as you did over a period of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjnels
    i can tell there are different definitions for "domaining" being used in this thread..
    The only definition I know of is earning money from domain names strictly by flipping them or through PPC revenue. Since there is virtually no PPC revenue with .mobi due to the lack of type-in traffic, that only leaves flipping, and I don't see anyone making money from flipping .mobi's anymore. The demand is just no longer there, and the portfolio costs eat up any little revenue that is left, as newdomainer also alluded to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres Kello View Post
    The only definition I know of is earning money from domain names strictly by flipping them or through PPC revenue. Since there is virtually no PPC revenue with .mobi due to the lack of type-in traffic, that only leaves flipping, and I don't see anyone making money from flipping .mobi's anymore. The demand is just no longer there, and the portfolio costs eat up any little revenue that is left, as newdomainer also alluded to.
    thats the way i use the word.. just as short way to say domain name speculation where the main goal is flipping or PPC.. if you add anything else to the mix it isnt just speculation (a.k.a. domaing) anymore


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    Founding Member Scandiman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjnels View Post
    thats the way i use the word.. just as short way to say domain name speculation where the main goal is flipping or PPC.. if you add anything else to the mix it isnt just speculation (a.k.a. domaing) anymore
    That's the same way I'm looking at things as well in regards to this particular discussion, pure speculation. My issue is in the blanket statement that no money can be made speculating in .mobi domains. I agree it isn't easy, I agree it isn't for the faint of heart. I agree the stronger approach is to buy names with clear development and website monetization objectives in mind. Some people make better predictions than others but no one knows the future, and to say that names bought today won't generate a profit in the future is merely an opinion about future events, not a fact. Everyone is entitled to have and share their opinions, I just want to be sure that it's clear everyone understands when opinion is being presented as fact.

    What's being defined differently here is profit. Many people hold names for long term speculation, value will go up and down, but the profit (or loss) is not realized until the asset is sold. It's unreasonable to simply assume all these holdings are a loss when no loss has actually been realized until the domain is actually sold or dropped.

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    Senior Member keithmt's Avatar
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    To me it's a loss each and every time a renewal fee is paid. Imagine buying a share of stock and having to rebuy the same share year after year. Sure you hope your investment appreciates but money out of pocket today is money lost today. That's not to say it won't be a gain tomorrow.

  19. #169
    Senior Member ChinaMobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    Can you tell us more?
    Say you have a piece of land but no skills nor money to develop it. You enter into a contract with a developer to develop a 10-story office building. He gets 9 stories and you get one plus your land. Now you both get income on your investment. Or, other variation of the partnership.

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    Founding Member Scandiman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaMobi View Post
    Say you have a piece of land but no skills nor money to develop it. You enter into a contract with a developer to develop a 10-story office building. He gets 9 stories and you get one plus your land. Now you both get income on your investment. Or, other variation of the partnership.
    Where domains and real estate part ways in comparison is that domains lack the means to share interest in a domain from the perspective of the registrar/registry. What I mean is that there is only one registrant for a domain while a piece of real estate can have shared interest (at least here in California). Spouses, partners, lenders, contractor liens, govt etc can all have a legal claim to or against the property which is well established in law. These things make it much more secure to all parties to have a joint venture. With domains it is the registrant in control of the domain asset and it is more difficult to constuct a working relationship that protects the interests of all parties. Not impossible, just much more difficult than most people realize.
    Last edited by Scandiman; 10-21-2010 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GijsZePa View Post
    Sorry..wasn't exacly pointing to .mobi domains, but domain names in general (some worth millions)..

    Martin

    My mistake Martin.... I was suffering from mobi-tunnel vision lol.... of course you're right about JV's when you start talking other TLD's

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scandiman View Post
    That's the same way I'm looking at things as well in regards to this particular discussion, pure speculation. My issue is in the blanket statement that no money can be made speculating in .mobi domains. I agree it isn't easy, I agree it isn't for the faint of heart. I agree the stronger approach is to buy names with clear development and website monetization objectives in mind. Some people make better predictions than others but no one knows the future, and to say that names bought today won't generate a profit in the future is merely an opinion about future events, not a fact. Everyone is entitled to have and share their opinions, I just want to be sure that it's clear everyone understands when opinion is being presented as fact.

    What's being defined differently here is profit. Many people hold names for long term speculation, value will go up and down, but the profit (or loss) is not realized until the asset is sold. It's unreasonable to simply assume all these holdings are a loss when no loss has actually been realized until the domain is actually sold or dropped.
    I don't see this as being any more complicated than this; -

    You 'invest' in 100 dotmobi domains..... at a cost of $10,000 - you sell one for $1,000

    Does this make your portfolio worth 100 x $1,000? Of course not...

    So (excluding renewals for simplicity) you don't break even until you've grossed $10,001 from sales and not a moment sooner.

    This is completely different to say buying 10 oz's of gold at $1,000. ok, you can sell one for $1,200 if you like and you're still in for $8,800 BUT WITH CERTAINTY you can be sure that you are in profit by $2,000 because all your gold has the same value per oz.

    The same can be said for stocks but you can easily lose your shirt on stocks.....

    This is what makes domaining unpredictable, exciting, and of course, foolhardy at times..... one sale means very little to the value of all the others.

  23. #173
    Senior Member ChinaMobi's Avatar
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    This is what makes domaining unpredictable, exciting, and of course, foolhardy at times..... one sale means very little to the value of all the others.
    Very true!

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    I am guessing we will be seeing a blog post from Rick in the coming days, explaining how selling flowers.mobi at a massive loss was a smart business decision. I hope he doesn't use the opportunity to bash .mobi in general.
    What would be great to see is, the new owner of flowers.mobi quickly flipping it to an end user for more than he paid for it.

  25. #175
    Senior Member DomainTalker's Avatar
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    Not entirely a surprise on Flowers.mobi the way things are - but, just terrible news for .mobi investors!......This kind of value destruction is systemic for .mobi - not market cyclical - with only very occasional specific exceptions.


    I think Tim's comment, above, that the .mobi extension he uses for his email was not even recognised as valid, by a major site, when he tried to use that email for registration, says it all.


    Any website - using any extension - can be a success, with the right business model, great promotion, a reasonable keyword, and business know-how - and, that includes .mobi......Its just harder when the extension you use is unknown, unrecognised, and unvalued.


    I think mobi domain speculation is entirely dead, imo. Passive profits (ie buying & holding, then flipping) is/will be almost non-existent in .mobi.....Astonishingly - in the worst economic conditions in the US & Europe for 70 years - and, at a time when .mobi capital values have plunged to virtual zero - Afilias & the Registrars continue to charge almost double .com prices for a .mobi Registration, and do almost nothing to attach value to their brand whatsoever.....Dreamland thinking - and rego-price gouging - is still alive and well with this mob, I see!

    For me, everything .mobi goes overboard - except my premiums, and a few others that have potential in one way, or another.


    If Andres was offered $xxx,xxx this year for a .mobi domain that he paid $x,xxx for, I hope he took it (I almost weep now when I think of a similar offer I turned down for one of my .mobi's a couple of years ago...lol).


    The .mobi thing had a glorious moment - and, the right entrepreneur running the dotmobi business, back in 2007, could have driven this thing to stunning places, imo...


    Very sad...

    .
    Last edited by DomainTalker; 10-22-2010 at 03:22 AM.

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    Mobility Regular Accent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomainTalker View Post
    .....
    I think mobi domain speculation is entirely dead, imo. Passive profits (ie buying & holding, then flipping) is/will be almost non-existent in .mobi .....
    .
    Not dead, just the odds have been raised and the potential payout reduced. Mobi has a value for diversification, and a major shakeup at DotMobi can still improve the extension. But most of my focus will be Com.
    http://tibetanjewelry.mobi
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  27. #177
    Administrator Andres Kello's Avatar
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    Folks, let's play some BINGO!

    Quote Originally Posted by mjnels
    thats the way i use the word.. just as short way to say domain name speculation where the main goal is flipping or PPC.. if you add anything else to the mix it isnt just speculation (a.k.a. domaing) anymore


    Quote Originally Posted by keithmt
    To me it's a loss each and every time a renewal fee is paid. Imagine buying a share of stock and having to rebuy the same share year after year. Sure you hope your investment appreciates but money out of pocket today is money lost today.


    Quote Originally Posted by newdomainer
    You 'invest' in 100 dotmobi domains..... at a cost of $10,000 - you sell one for $1,000

    Does this make your portfolio worth 100 x $1,000? Of course not...

    So (excluding renewals for simplicity) you don't break even until you've grossed $10,001 from sales and not a moment sooner.

    This is completely different to say buying 10 oz's of gold at $1,000. ok, you can sell one for $1,200 if you like and you're still in for $8,800 BUT WITH CERTAINTY you can be sure that you are in profit by $2,000 because all your gold has the same value per oz.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaMobi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by newdomainer
    This is what makes domaining unpredictable, exciting, and of course, foolhardy at times..... one sale means very little to the value of all the others.
    Very true!


    Quote Originally Posted by DomainTalker
    I think Tim's comment, above, that the .mobi extension he uses for his email was not even recognised as valid, by a major site, when he tried to use that email for registration, says it all.


    Quote Originally Posted by DomainTalker
    Any website - using any extension - can be a success, with the right business model, great promotion, a reasonable keyword, and business know-how - and, that includes .mobi......Its just harder when the extension you use is unknown, unrecognised, and unvalued.


    Quote Originally Posted by DomainTalker
    The .mobi thing had a glorious moment - and, the right entrepreneur running the dotmobi business, back in 2007, could have driven this thing to stunning places, imo...


    Very sad...


    Quote Originally Posted by Accent
    a major shakeup at DotMobi can still improve the extension
    (but ain't gonna happen...)

    Quote Originally Posted by DomainTalker
    For me, everything .mobi goes overboard - except my premiums, and a few others that have potential in one way, or another.


    Quote Originally Posted by DomainTalker
    I think mobi domain speculation is entirely dead, imo. Passive profits (ie buying & holding, then flipping) is/will be almost non-existent in .mobi



    Not much more to say...
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  28. #178
    Senior Member ChinaMobi's Avatar
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    I like your humorous way of presenting your opinion, Andres.

  29. #179
    Founding Member Scandiman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youmo View Post
    I am guessing we will be seeing a blog post from Rick in the coming days, explaining how selling flowers.mobi at a massive loss was a smart business decision. I hope he doesn't use the opportunity to bash .mobi in general.
    What would be great to see is, the new owner of flowers.mobi quickly flipping it to an end user for more than he paid for it.
    It will be funny to see how rick spins this. As for a quick end user flip, I highly doubt it, I'm pretty sure Rick and the gang went to great lengths to tell as many flower companies as possible about the sale and it still ended up in the hands of another speculator.

  30. #180
    Senior Member gogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres Kello View Post

    Not much more to say...
    Yeah, that about sums up .mobi - you can hold a winning card but you still get no payout.

    I have been wondering if .co will follow a similar path - looks like a bubble right now - but it is a countrycode of a good-sized country.

    So basically to make .mobi re-succeed we need to make it the countrycode of a new or renamed country... any ideas?

    Mobistan, Camobia, Camoberoon, Bimbolia... you name it...

    Better yet if it is a virtual tax haven.

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