What qualities truly make keyword(s) valuable?

[noonoo1]

What qualities make keyword(s) valuable?

This has been one of those eternal questions we all ask ourselves.
Some of us believe we know the secret already.
Some of us look to others and try to follow their lead.
Some of us believe the hype created by others.
Some of us look at a huge variety of tools that give us stats.
Some of us use all these different options.

I believe i have found the answer, i have started to register these names already.:laugh:

[gogo]

Ok Noo you have really got me interested... but if those names are free to reg can they be valuable?

[noonoo1]

Ok Noo you have really got me interested... but if those names are free to reg can they be valuable?

Yeah, i believe you can by making a minisite with relevant ads/amazon.:biggrin:

There is natural traffic already.:biggrin:

[noonoo1]

Ok, so whats worth more and why?

FOOD or SEX

:adore:

[MyWebSearches]

With the right developement most if not all domains become very valueable property.

[noonoo1]

I agree to a certain degree but would it be quite costly? Would it be an advantage to have say a domain that has natural search queries already before development?

[Gerry]

Would it be an advantage to have say a domain that has natural search queries already before development?Yes

[Dave]

Would it be an advantage to have say a domain that has natural search queries already before development?
To put it succinctly, "Duh!" Of course it is...that's what so much of domaining is built around, and what smart businesses look for in a keyword domain name.

Why all the mystery with the intent of this thread? It would be nice if you could just come right out and tell us what you want to tell us... :rolleyes2:

[jasdon]

Ok, so whats worth more and why?

FOOD or SEX

:adore:



Sex - people don't like dipping into their wallets for the neccessities in life, but are ok with paying through the nose for things that give them pleasure.

The other day I had to get a new pump fitted on my boiler which cost £200 - even though it gives me nice hot water and a warm house, I don't regard those as 'pleasure' - due to the comfortable lives we now lead, I consider those things as basic requirements, and hence didn't like shelling out for them.

If I'd spent that £200 on some nice lingerie for her indoors, I would get some brief pleasure from it and hence the 'reward' is there for the cash expended, and so I don't mind paying.

People pay readily for pleasure - sex is more valuable than food - I know some food is exceptionally good, but...

[noonoo1]

Yes

What i am trying to see if we here at .mobi can find the answer. It seems to me that there is a fair bit of smoke and mirrors going on many different levels.

I have been studying sales from dnjournals sold lists, from .com to cctlds. I have been using different freely anailable tools.

I have come to the decision that some of the biggish .com sales have been sold to some suckers by fantastic/brilliant salesmen.

Conclusion: The .com market is full of hype and BS

The natural daily search is the true indicator of the value of any domain any extention.

[noonoo1]

People pay readily for pleasure - sex is more valuable than food - I know some food is exceptionally good, but...

Thats interesting,

the daily search for FOOD is 3,841,803

the daily search for SEX is 2,325,002


:biggrin:


It looks like there is more of a demand for food.:embarassed:

[Dave]

What i am trying to see if we here at .mobi can find the answer. It seems to me that there is a fair bit of smoke and mirrors going on many different levels.

I have been studying sales from dnjournals sold lists, from .com to cctlds. I have been using different freely anailable tools.

I have come to the decision that some of the biggish .com sales have been sold to some suckers by fantastic/brilliant salesmen.

Conclusion: The .com market is full of hype and BS

The natural daily search is the true indicator of the value of any domain any extention.

Does your research include previous Web sites on the domains? With some of the more obscure-sounding nice sales that show up on DNJournal, I think frequently the explanation is that those names had sites built on them and therefore are getting a lot of traffic. Even if they don't have natural search keywords built into them...

[noonoo1]

Does your research include previous Web sites on the domains? With some of the more obscure-sounding nice sales that show up on DNJournal, I think frequently the explanation is that those names had sites built on them and therefore are getting a lot of traffic. Even if they don't have natural search keywords built into them...

Look at SteakKnives(dot)com $18,000 Daily search= It doesnt even register

Look at Content(dot)de $17,940 Daily search=9,229 searches per day

:dontknow:

Steak knives have got alot of hard work ahead of itself to achieve a daily search of 9,229 per day.

[Accent]

Search is part of it, of course, but so is branding and memorability. If I owned a company that was the leading manufacturer of high-end steak knives in the world I would pay a whole lot more than $18,000 for SteakKnives.com - Category killer domains (granted a niche category in this case) give instant prestige.

[gogo]

It also depends on the value of the item (and the conversion rate) - capturing a few hundred searches a day on a really high ticket item could be far more lucrative than capturing thousands looking for pepper grinders or condoms.

[Dave]

:bingo: to both Accent and gogo

[jasdon]

Thats interesting,

the daily search for FOOD is 3,841,803

the daily search for SEX is 2,325,002


:biggrin:


It looks like there is more of a demand for food.:embarassed:

Where are your figures from?

Google monthly search says;

Food: 45.5m (UK 9.14m)
Sex: 277m (UK 55.6m)

[Gerry]

I have been studying sales from dnjournals sold lists, from .com to cctlds. In my opinion, there is NO correlation between the sales of names and what they are actually worth. Only a true end user who takes the domain to a site can determine the value.

None.

I say this because of a single example a couple of weeks ago.

Raspberry.com sold a couple of weeks ago for nearly $16K. Many in the know domainers claimed the buyer overpaid. Their rationale? They did not think it would make a hundred bucks a year parked.

Please, someone tell me that domainers are not that stupid? Because I am rapidly becoming convinced they are.

I honestly used to believe the value of a domain is what someone is willing to pay for it. Frankly, I still do.

But if domainers are going to measure the success of a domain on how much it can maked as a parked site then they have truly taken 4 steps backwards.

Without a thought to the market there is for raspberries - from the sale of bareroot stock to varieties, colors, flavors, recipes, canning, to the sale and packaging in grocery stores -

without thought of developing a site -

or even redirecting to an existing site (look at something like noursefarms.com, an establishment that wholesales and retails nation wide - including to me).

Some "experts" want to try to convince me that the buyer overpaid because Raspberry.com would likely not make a hundred bucks parked.

Folks, I said before and I'll say it again...

If I am going to pay $16k to park something you better damn well believe it will be in my driveway or garage.

Honestly, that back and forth that I had with several people on a blog was shocking and revealing. It clearly showed me the mindset of many in the domain business. All I could think of is all the other names that were tainted because they would likely not achieve a good return on parking. They have no business calling themselves business people.

[acc]

Amen Gerry, you're preachin' to the choir.

I think some who have been in .mobi from the get go and many of the others who have joined in later recognize the potential of .mobi and understand it better than "seasoned dot commers" since PPC parking revenue was not the driving force for investing in this extension. May be it's a blessing in disguise for some of us.

Sure, easy parking revenue is nice but like you explained in the example of raspberries.com, many domainers are shortsighted and hold such a narrow understanding about the possibilities of each and every "usable" term domain name.

Mainstream real-product business owners are rarely if ever domainers, and most domainers really do not understand real businesses.

[jasdon]

In my opinion, there is NO correlation between the sales of names and what they are actually worth. Only a true end user who takes the domain to a site can determine the value.

None.

I say this because of a single example a couple of weeks ago.

Raspberry.com sold a couple of weeks ago for nearly $16K. Many in the know domainers claimed the buyer overpaid. Their rationale? They did not think it would make a hundred bucks a year parked.

Please, someone tell me that domainers are not that stupid? Because I am rapidly becoming convinced they are.

I honestly used to believe the value of a domain is what someone is willing to pay for it. Frankly, I still do.

But if domainers are going to measure the success of a domain on how much it can maked as a parked site then they have truly taken 4 steps backwards.

Without a thought to the market there is for raspberries - from the sale of bareroot stock to varieties, colors, flavors, recipes, canning, to the sale and packaging in grocery stores -

without thought of developing a site -

or even redirecting to an existing site (look at something like noursefarms.com, an establishment that wholesales and retails nation wide - including to me).

Some "experts" want to try to convince me that the buyer overpaid because Raspberry.com would likely not make a hundred bucks parked.

Folks, I said before and I'll say it again...

If I am going to pay $16k to park something you better damn well believe it will be in my driveway or garage.

Honestly, that back and forth that I had with several people on a blog was shocking and revealing. It clearly showed me the mindset of many in the domain business. All I could think of is all the other names that were tainted because they would likely not achieve a good return on parking. They have no business calling themselves business people.

Totally agree - hell, it's worth more than that as a potential brand name....apple.com....orange.com... - although it's a sylable longer than those it could still work for some products or services. Then there's blackberry.com. $16k was a good buy.

[mjnels]

yea but - who bought the name raspberry.com... a 'domainer' or an 'end user'?

thats what matters. the people saying he overpaid were likely talking in the context of domaining. because domainer to domainer sales are the larger part of the industry.

[Gerry]

yea but - who bought the name raspberry.com... a 'domainer' or an 'end user'?

thats what matters. the people saying he overpaid were likely talking in the context of domaining. because domainer to domainer sales are the larger part of the industry.
Domain Capital.

Parked on Sedo.

YeeHaw! Get you some GUMMY RED RASPBERRIES

Make that dollar or two.

[mjnels]

yea, noticed that...looked like a domainer.. so its a bit of a different context here i think.

domainers talking amongst themselves about pricing is much like wholesalers conversing amongst themselves. if the name just sits there then yes, the person likely paid way too much because they will have to rely on finding an end-user to pay more or parking revenue. in this case its just about probability of a higher sale or how much the name will earn parked. whereas building a business out of the domain, 16k is a drop in the bucket. but building a real business is a lot of time and effort, and most 'domainers' that park have no intent on doing this.

[rob]

Thats interesting,

the daily search for FOOD is 3,841,803

the daily search for SEX is 2,325,002


:biggrin:


It looks like there is more of a demand for food.:embarassed:

Im sorry noonoo where are you getting your stats from because when i use wordtracker i come up with a completely different results.

daily wordtracker
sex 217,183
food 13,780

Just curious
Rob

[gogo]

Im sorry noonoo where are you getting your stats from because when i use wordtracker i come up with a completely different results.

daily wordtracker
sex 217,183
food 13,780

Just curious
Rob
confusing.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TA7FRP1FL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Organic-Sex-Lubricants-Raspberry/dp/B0002BB6EG

[noonoo1]

capturing a few hundred searches a day on a really high ticket item could be far more lucrative than capturing thousands looking for pepper grinders or condoms.

That reminds me i have to develop Contraception.mobi :laugh:


Where are your figures from?

Google monthly search says;

Food: 45.5m (UK 9.14m)
Sex: 277m (UK 55.6m)

All i will say is that the search results i get are for the keyword only, rather than the keyword in a phrase like "gay sex"

The tool i am using generates a list of keywords with their daily search volume.

So each tool is slightly different daily wordtracker/google keywords and the one i'm using.

I think its pretty good. I picked up a nice name yesterday with natural search traffic. Its the suggested names with search stats that attracts me to this tool.

[gogo]

That reminds me i have to develop Contraception.mobi :laugh:

A guy your age? didn't your parents set you straight ? Better hurry up or you will have lots of hungry mouths to feed.

You going to show us your tool?


The suspense is killing me.

It's gotta be hot to get all those chicks, I mean clicks.

Back on topic I wonder about keywords in mobile search - obviously some categories are searched more or differently on mobile, others may change with voice activated search, but to me it's also a question of what people are going to pay for on mobile.


btw check out adult section for a nice bargain this month on a package of sex searched keyword names (see under xmas LOL)

[cart456]

This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone I wonder about keywords in mobile search - obviously some categories are searched more or differently on mobile, others may change with voice activated search, but to me it's also a question of what people are going to pay for on mobile.

cart456

MOD EDIT: Nice Try.. Do it again and I'll politely show you the door.

[Scandiman]

Im sorry noonoo where are you getting your stats from because when i use wordtracker i come up with a completely different results.

daily wordtracker
sex 217,183
food 13,780

Just curious
Rob

Yup, that's about the same numbers I get also.

[MyWebSearches]

A domain is worth:

"the value of a domain is what someone is willing to pay for it"

Example:

I'm currently interested in buying a domain from this person/company, but so far I'm still waiting for a reply.

The domain in question is virtually worthless to this person because I don't see how he can make money from it. I know for sure he will not be able to develop this domain and he/she does it will take a lot money and wait for several years to see some returns.

It's a lose cause for him.

I don't even have an explanation why he has this domain name, the only person that could be interested in this domain is me. So I will send another email and see what the asking price ($500 or Less is what I would pay for it).

Or Just will wait for this person not to renew the domain, sooner or later this person will see that there is no value to have this domain.

[Scandiman]

In my opinion, there is NO correlation between the sales of names and what they are actually worth.
.
.
.
I honestly used to believe the value of a domain is what someone is willing to pay for it. Frankly, I still do.

You'll have to clear this one up for me Ger, seems like contradictory statements in the same post.

[Scandiman]

A domain is worth:

"the value of a domain is what someone is willing to pay for it"

Example:

I'm currently interested in buying a domain from this person/company, but so far I'm still waiting for a reply.

The domain in question is virtually worthless to this person because I don't see how he can make money from it. I know for sure he will not be able to develop this domain and he/she does it will take a lot money and wait for several years to see some returns.

It's a lose cause for him.

I don't even have an explanation why he has this domain name, the only person that could be interested in this domain is me. So I will send another email and see what the asking price ($500 or Less is what I would pay for it).

Or Just will wait for this person not to renew the domain, sooner or later this person will see that there is no value to have this domain.

Impossible to predict motives, some people look at domains like lottery tickets that all have winning numbers. $500 isn't going to make anyone rich so your offer doesn't meet their emotional expectations, and your act of making an offer validates their original idea that the name has value.

[Gerry]

You'll have to clear this one up for me Ger, seems like contradictory statements in the same post.Perhaps one must exclude domainers in the valuation concept?

It is conflicting as you pointed out.

I wish there was a way to separate domainers and end users but I do not know of one.

There are a few things that have happened over the past month or so that tells me there is no "true" gauge to measure the value of a domain.

We have seen some huge price drops from domains purchased previously and resold. The new purchase price for some has gone way down. Now, does this indicate that the item was overpriced initially? market adjustment? a "needed" quick sell for the seller? all these together?

Honestly, this raspberry thing astounds me. The thinking and their reinforcing of the issue of parking just blows me away. I see NO correlation of the value of a name vs. the potential of parking. But that is the mindset of most of the domaining industry. Clearly, that skews value tremendously.

Some name have inherent ability to generate income based solely on the name itself. That is what drives the generic craze.

If one of our members buys a name for $100 and we say that was a steal, then surely we are saying they did not pay its true value. Does that make it less valuable?

If we say that they paid too much, does that make it over-valued?

Here are a couple other instances that has convinced me that "domainers/domaining" is very whacked in their perceptions:

First, something that I agree with. Recently Elliot Silver posted in his blog that the reason he would not broker domains was the end user was not looking for a domain. Otherwise, the end user would make the effort to contact the owner. I really paraphrased that a lot but essentially that is what I got out of it and I agree wholeheartedly. Brokering mobi is a we bit different in that many (sad to say) are still not aware of its existence. We know what we did with the first and second sedo auction based purely on the awareness campaign we launched, thanks to MobiMaven's initiative. So, if Elliot is correct, and I think he is, then domains in the hands of domainers end up parked waiting for that end-user to come along. And, those same domainers bitch about parking revenue (me included).

The second thing I want to mention: recently I decided to list and sell some domains on Domains dot com. Francois charged $5.00 per name listed. I was to indicate a price and add a comment or two. He would then review and submit the names I can not remember all the names but two were RussianKGB and Tweeted dot com. I indicated some high but not outlandish prices. I got an email from Francois a day or two later saying that he could not list my names at that price because they were much higher than the estibot appraisals. WTF??? He reminded me that my names would be seen by professional domainers and they know the value of domains. I emailed back and said that any "professional domainer" that relied on estibot was hardly the audience I wanted to reach. He refunded my money.

I am convinced that 95% of domainers do not know wtf they are doing. They just get lucky or have gotten lucky. That same 95% could not be gainfully employed in any industry. I base that on comments made by them, reading their responses on blogs, etc.

It is no different with .mobi and all those flame wars.

I don't like it therefore it is worthless.

A dot mobi has no value.

Is that the value of a dot mobi? The thing that distinguishes dot mobi from any other domain is what I see, hear, and use on this forum. This is perhaps the first of a new generational domains that has brought about a new generation of domainers. dot mobi has created a new generation of domainers who are tech savvy, programmers, and users. Yes, speculators too. But that is the nature of the business of domaining in general, but not the model of .mobi.

dot Mobi, like Raspberry, is over priced and over paid because it will not do well parking.

[DomainTalker]

Great bedrock issue....:)


The way I look at it, words are pretty much everything...Without words, its hard to see how anything - business, personal, or, even simply ideas/thoughts - can work well.

Words are the currency of commerce & life - and, the currency of the ultimate communication system, the internet. Words describe, convey, sell, and persuade. Words tells us things, move us, and stimulate us to action. Words turn us on, and, turn us off. Words are everywhere. In everything.


What are words worth?


Well....Anything, at all - or, nothing - depending on what someone can use that/those words for. Its as simple as that, really.


When I look at a vacant block of land, I see an empty space; When a property developer looks at the same vacant block, he sees a home, an office tower, a retail project.

...But, first, the value has to be unlocked. He has to spin the vision (with words) to invest a potential value in the block of land - to raise the finance, to pre-sell off the plan, or, to bring in partners etc....Only then, the block of land begins to have more than basic value.


Its the same with keywords, and the internet.


Any keyword that actually describes something specific is gold, in the internet age - the more embracing the word(s) the more golden....They're gold because the internet can allow the user of that word to reach billions of people - with an idea, or a product, or service....And, as long as words are a key currency of communication, then the right use of any keyword has a shot at influencing people to do something.....If you can move large numbers of people to action, then, any word that can do that is literally priceless.


But the value of the Keyword has to be unlocked. And, that's about what the owner does with the keyword, and/or, how they present it.

...'Google', or 'YouTube' were worthless words until someone made the words attractive to billions of people by wrapping those words in a concept.....'iReport.com' was worthless until a smart operator connected the words to CNN's planned concept for it, and it became worth $750k....The value of 'Seniors.com' was $100,000, until the owner connected the keyword to FriendFinder, who then valued it at $1.8m...


...Then, there's the value in keywords that can be created simply by showing someone else a vison for it - a way for them to greatly enhance their own goals, or monetary opportunity. The chance to grab that opportunity can invest great value in the keyword, for someone. Salesmanship.


The secret, I think, is to see (key)words as a communication currency. And, to see the internet as essentially the ultimate communication environment...


...And, in that context, the rest is down to investing value into words by either developing them into a concept by using a website device - Or, by simply using words to sell an idea about a given word to someone else who will see a benefit in it...Any word that says something can be made valuable to someone.


Value of a keyword in the Communication Age? Priceless.

Creativity & Salesmanship.


Either will do.

.

[Scandiman]

dot Mobi, like Raspberry, is over priced and over paid because it will not do well parking.
That pretty much summarizes the typical domainer myopia, but if that's the only form of ROI then it is what it is.

[Gerry]

That pretty much summarizes the typical domainer myopia, but if that's the only form of ROI then it is what it is.should I put :sarcasm: at the end of that phrase?

[Scandiman]

should I put :sarcasm: at the end of that phrase?

:laugh: no sarcasm intended, I agree with your overall assessments of the typical domainer mentality. The parking/flip business model is what it is and while many talk about doing more, few actually go beyond and build something substantial on a domain, it simply is not what domain speculators do.

[gogo]

I got an email from Francois a day or two later saying that he could not list my names at that price because they were much higher than the estibot appraisals. WTF??? He reminded me that my names would be seen by professional domainers and they know the value of domains

Hilarious. Pity you can't set up similar "authority" sites for equities, properties or interest rates and use them to manipulate prices.

Gerry I agree those guys missed the boat on raspberry, but if you have $1000 to put in an account paying 0% or an account paying 5% the second one looks better. IMO they are looking at domains as if they were buying equities with a goal like "I want 4% return every year", not capital appreciation. Rational, but very blinding.

That means more opportunities for others, though.

[jasdon]

A domain is worth:

"the value of a domain is what someone is willing to pay for it"


Not neccesarily - the value is what the owner decides, if not, there is no sale.

I have (and I assume you all do too) names in negotiation - prospective buyers have offered an amount, and until they meet my valuation of the names, there won't be a sale. The seller decides the value in all cases, not the buyer.

[Gerry]

Hilarious. Pity you can't set up similar "authority" sites for equities, properties or interest rates and use them to manipulate prices.So true.



Gerry I agree those guys missed the boat on raspberry, but if you have $1000 to put in an account paying 0% or an account paying 5% the second one looks better. IMO they are looking at domains as if they were buying equities with a goal like "I want 4% return every year", not capital appreciation. Rational, but very blinding.I was just stunned by their "professional" rationale.

To me, they may have well said,

I wouldn't know what the hell to do with it.

There was also criticism of how it could be mispelled easily and someone even mentioned the majority of people couldn't spell it.

Then, buy the typos if that is a concern.

It ended up being one of those,

Yeah, but, but this, yeah but that

types of conversations. This argument shot down, that argument shot down, and so on.

The only downside to this name is it is a seasonal product, of sorts. In season, raspberries are $3.99 -$4.99 a cup. That is about a hand full.

Yes, I do have a personal attachment to the name because I cultivate and grow them. I do know what to do with a name like that.

All that aside, I am still floored by the parking analogy. Between that and supposed professional domainers relying on estibot, that just convinced me that there are clear separations of domainer types.

I do realize that many domainers depend on a cash flow from parking. But if that is what years of domaining has taught them then time to pack it in.

[noonoo1]

All that aside, I am still floored by the parking analogy. Between that and supposed professional domainers relying on estibot, that just convinced me that there are clear separations of domainer types.



I dont think some of them are as professional as they like to think they are. They just got lucky early on in the .com game. They keep the hype up with the prices, the time will come when people will realise you dont need a .com, look at the increase in cctlds, and then they will realise how valuable .mobi will be. The point is any of the 100's of tlds will do for a pc but only ONE will do for mobile, now thats where the money will be.:biggrin:

[mjnels]

I dont think some of them are as professional as they like to think they are. They just got lucky early on in the .com game. They keep the hype up with the prices, the time will come when people will realise you dont need a .com, look at the increase in cctlds, and then they will realise how valuable .mobi will be. The point is any of the 100's of tlds will do for a pc but only ONE will do for mobile, now thats where the money will be.:biggrin:


i think you are forgetting that some of these .com guys held onto their domains even through bust. thats not luck.. that took balls and believing in something. people used to say the entire internet was just a fad back then.

i like .mobi too.. but marginalizing the guys that held onto quality .com's for years is just plain silly.

[Gerry]

i think you are forgetting that some of these .com guys held onto their domains even through bust. thats not luck.. that took balls and believing in something. people used to say the entire internet was just a fad back then.This is very true.

Name them.

[MyWebSearches]

[QUOTE=jasdon;112235] Not neccesarily - the value is what the owner decides, if not, there is no sale.
[QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, while the seller decides most of the time for how much to sell any given domain,

It is up to the Buyer to decide if the domain is worh the price the seller is asking.

I guess it takes a compromise between both parties. Otherwise there is no sale at all.

[mjnels]

This is very true.

Name them.


ill have a list on your desk by 5pm Tuesday. (Monday is Memorial day so i gave myself the day off) ;)

seriously, anyone calling people that held or hand registered lists of great .com's for 10+ years "lucky" are kidding themselves. i dont own any quality .com's but statements like this just scream jealously... IMHO + 1,000 emoticons

[coast]

I think MJ set market prices by sheer quantity of wholesale priced sales on NP and eBay.

Am I right? ;)

[mjnels]

probably, but it is what it is. i think .mobi aftermarket prices shot up way too fast anyway.. it was unsustainable.. especially the LLL.mobi prices early on. was like $200 minimum for any crappy quality LLL.mobi... i couldnt have been the only one thinking that wasnt going to last.. real growth happens slow and steady.

and oh yea.. speaking of setting prices and sheer quantity, stay tuned on Monday. ;)

[MyWebSearches]

I will hold my domains for a minimun of 10 years!!!

I really don't see much happening during the first 5 years, meanwhile I will develop some of these domains as I reached my goal of 10 years.

Whatever your domain name is, there is always the opportunity to be creative and make that domain a success.

One main obstacle for me is that there are not many tools/scripts to develop a great .mobi domain.

I invest in all extensions as long as the keyword is available and I am able to create a nice looking site with what is available without spending thousands of dollars. Most of my non .mobi domains are developed with Directory scripts, Video Scripts, and blog scripts.

But I cant' do the same thing for my .mobi domains, I'm still waiting for something to happen in order to be able to develop these domains. I can see something with "The dotMobi WordPress Mobile Pack"

So far I'm very optimistic about the .mobi brand and how they are moving forward. It only takes one great idea to change .mobi world future.

[noonoo1]

i think you are forgetting that some of these .com guys held onto their domains even through bust. thats not luck.. that took balls and believing in something. people used to say the entire internet was just a fad back then.

i like .mobi too.. but marginalizing the guys that held onto quality .com's for years is just plain silly.

I did say some domainers, and yes i am a little jealous because i was there writing programs back in 81-87 o-levels and a-levels and when i left school i got out of computer studies and really missed the boat. I did not get back into computers and internet until 2000. What i meant were the people like the guy that had pizza.com and to be honest the renewal fees for a handful of good names back then would not cost the earth. I take my hat off to the domainers that invested alot of cash over the years, that does like you say take balls. If i had invested that kind of money in names i would do anything to hold onto the value which includes knocking other tlds. I think the tiny cracks are starting to appear in the .com market with other tlds starting to gain value, joe public are getting used to seeing other tlds but thats just my opinion.

[mjnels]

I think the tiny cracks are starting to appear in the .com market with other tlds starting to gain value, joe public are getting used to seeing other tlds but thats just my opinion.

i do agree with you here... i see a day when joe public realizes anything to the right of the dot can be a TLD. the .com "brand" is ingrained into a lot of peoples mind however.. but its probable the tide will start to turn somewhat.. to what extent is anyones guess.

[thebiffenator]

NOt trying to go off track here, but I read through most of this thread. ANd the one thing I want to point out is the people that held the .com's and went through the bust and renewed. It was worth it.

And pretty much everyone is kicking themselves in the "but" now because they had the same opertunity to get them but, they spent their investments on other stuff and lost.

(Not knocking any investment but I got into .mobi because I saw my Sirus stock keep plumiting, SO basicly I broke even with that I should of sold it when it went up to $7 but oh well. Anyway I sold it for what I bought it for and got my money back (this was the time when the ipod started to take off and rumors of them merging with XM, basicly my stock broker friend told me to dump it ASAP and he was right.) So I had a little over a thousand shares in it and invested .mobi after the sale. I think it was wise of me to switch investments.

Now I am sure you all do the same as me, everywhere I go I talk people's heads off about .mobi, this is going on for over 2 years now. 99% of them say oh yeah it is really cool, I will check it out. and I keep urging them to buy some nice names up (alot of them people could afford some x,xxx (Ony 2 clients/friends out of 100 probably boughy a .mobi) Most of them now are bitching about there loss in investments nowm one friend lost 200k on real estate.

:dontknow: I guess the point is that people that are told about a great investment and don't listen (dont have faith) just like most of us were when we could of had some nice .com names. This has nothing to do with the econmy either this is when landrush was basicly happening.

As far as kewords go I am happy with the names I have, my favorite is Poop, It is just so fun to say to people that I own it. And it is the kind of name that can be made into any kind of site basicly.But for other keywords I think they are all good, the main thing is having your viewers remember the site. Search results work and everything but hte main thing is have a built site to make people come back. that changes.

Another site that I love for a a "branded generic" is Igloo (http://igloo.mobi) (it is one of the biggest moible directories now and it is called igloo.) Before you would think it was a pile of snow in it, but now I am sure you see there site in your head when you hear of igloo. And I love DIR (http://dir.mobi) for a short abreviation, plese check out vcools updated site. :smile:

So branding is very important which Igloo and DIR have done. And alot of the major corps use random names as you know for their brand. ANd if you notice alot of them are fun to say, like google, twitter, Yahoo even Poop lol. But at the same time a site with a direct application should be straight foward like "cars" "dating" "pizza:

I guess wha I am trying to say to sum this all up. There are 2 great options of keywords/generics. Apply the Branded name to your developed site that may have nothing to do with the name. Or if you own a reallly great generic make the site about that name like "Cars".

Sorry to babble on, and sorry if I had typos ect... :argh::argh::argh: But the main thing I am trying to say is keyword or no keyword, it is how well you market it and how well your enduser likes it.

[Dave]

Not neccesarily - the value is what the owner decides, if not, there is no sale.


Correct me if I'm wrong, while the seller decides most of the time for how much to sell any given domain,

It is up to the Buyer to decide if the domain is worh the price the seller is asking.

My thoughts exactly. You can price a domain at anything you want as the seller, but until the buyer pays you that amount, that's not its value.

[Scandiman]

My thoughts exactly. You can price a domain at anything you want as the seller, but until the buyer pays you that amount, that's not its value.

Perhaps something is not being dealt with well here, while there are significant similarities, there's also a difference between price and value. Among their various definitions:

price: the sum or amount of money or its equivalent for which anything is bought, sold, or offered for sale.

value: relative worth, merit, or importance

The point being is that the price decided between a buyer and seller for a product or service often does not equal its value. What's the price of one liter of water? But what is its value? To whom? The desert hiker suffering from dehydration will value that liter even more than a fire fighter, who will value it more than kids playing in a pool full of the stuff.

I would not pay $2,250 for creation.mobi, but obviously someone else valued it more than me. Was that the top price they were willing to pay? Maybe they were willing to pay $100,000? Only they know, but between the seller and buyer at one point in time they decided on the price of $2,250.

[Gerry]

The desert hiker suffering from dehydration will value that liter even more than a fire fighter...Unless the drunken firefighter sets his truck-tent on fire while bar-b-queing and the liter bottle is all he has to put it out with.

Cheers and happy Memorial Day.

[jasdon]

My thoughts exactly. You can price a domain at anything you want as the seller, but until the buyer pays you that amount, that's not its value.


Yes it is, because in every deal the buyer must pay what the seller wants; end of story. The seller might re-evaluate his price downwards to make a deal, but whatever price he settles on, is the value - the value being the highest price that it is worth to somebody.

The seller is the only person who can say that a deal will actually take place. Once the buyers offer exceeds the value to the seller, then a sale can take place, and only the seller can decide this.

Example: I'm approached by a prospective buyer for a name, and his top price is $800 - I'm not going to sell for that because to me, it's worth (value) is $2000.
Q. What value would you say the name has, $800 or $2000?
A. It's $2000
Just because the highest price someone else is willing to pay today is $800 has no bearing on it's value. Tomorrow the highest price someone is willing to pay might be $100, but again, the value is $2000 because that's what it's worth to me (in fact you could argue that it's value to me is $1999).

I don't know for a fact, but my guess is that Rick Schwartz uses similar reasoning when selling his names, that's why he gets so much for them - he's got to be the best domain seller out there. I'm sure he doesn't have the mindset that a name is only worth what someone else is willing to pay you on any given day. He sets the value and waits for a buyer with similar vision to step up to the mark...
If you're going round thinking that the buyer determines the value, you're on your back foot from the start.

I sure that your argument is going to be, 'what about the people who ask $50k for a $50 name?' - well in the vast majority of cases, those asking silly amounts are asking a figure far in excess of what they actually believe it's worth, and that also has no relevance to it's value either as they will sell for much less.

To sum up, asking prices and offers are totally irrelevant to an assets value until the buyer offers what the seller wants.

[Scandiman]

The seller is the only person who can say that a deal will actually take place.

I invite you to learn about the current Sacramento region real estate market, clearly it is the buyer who is calling the shots right now. Some neighborhoods are down as much as 80% or more from a few years ago. Homes with a loan of $200,000 being sold by the foreclosing bank for $25,000 or less. The banks had to sell and that's the best price they could get in those areas.

[Dave]

Perhaps something is not being dealt with well here, while there are significant similarities, there's also a difference between price and value. Among their various definitions:

price: the sum or amount of money or its equivalent for which anything is bought, sold, or offered for sale.

value: relative worth, merit, or importance

The point being is that the price decided between a buyer and seller for a product or service often does not equal its value. What's the price of one liter of water? But what is its value? To whom? The desert hiker suffering from dehydration will value that liter even more than a fire fighter, who will value it more than kids playing in a pool full of the stuff.

I would not pay $2,250 for creation.mobi, but obviously someone else valued it more than me. Was that the top price they were willing to pay? Maybe they were willing to pay $100,000? Only they know, but between the seller and buyer at one point in time they decided on the price of $2,250.
I understand your point and agree, but really then looking at "value" in that sense you'd have to say that no .mobi name has any more value than the amount of money it actually is bringing in for its owner. Because otherwise it's all relative and maybe no one would ever pay the amount the last buyer paid for a given domain.

[Dave]

To sum up, asking prices and offers are totally irrelevant to an assets value until the buyer offers what the seller wants.
And right here, you're admitting the opposite of the point you're trying to make! You're admitting that the buyer needs to offer the amount before a price is established. :)

Really, it's two ways of saying the same thing, and ultimately it's a two-way process (i.e., "supply and demand"). If someone offers to pay a given price set by the seller, then the seller was asking an amount that is relatively reasonable given the market circumstances. If no one is willing to pay the asking price, then the seller isn't being reasonable and no sale will be made. Until a buyer wants something enough to pay a given price for it, an asking price is merely an asking price, not the object's value. And that's why I see the buyer as being the more crucial element in determining the "value."

But then, as Scandi suggests above, there's the idea that all value is relative and none of the above regarding "price" really relates to it anyway. So at that point you can only really say that "value" is equal to the true amount of money a domain can bring in for you over a given period of time. But with some types of purchases -- say, collectibles (antique toys, for example) -- the "value" can only be what a buyer will pay. The collectible doesn't bring in money besides what you are able to sell it for.

[Scandiman]

I understand your point and agree, but really then looking at "value" in that sense you'd have to say that no .mobi name has any more value than the amount of money it actually is bringing in for its owner. Because otherwise it's all relative and maybe no one would ever pay the amount the last buyer paid for a given domain.The value of something is all relative in the end. Relative to the financial situations of the buyer and seller, relative to comp prices, relative to the business opportunity someone sees in something that others don't, relative to the buyers need or desire for the product of service, relative to the venue of sale, the list goes on.

If I buy a painting at a garage sale for ten bucks and then sell it the next day to an antiques dealer for $100,000... what was the paintings value? I met the sellers price of $10 so was that the value? Or is the value set by the price the dealer paid me? Or is it set by the $500,000 that the dealer sells it for to the rich lady who he just happens to know is a collector of that particular artist and has been looking for that painting for 20 years? Or is the value set by the $1,000,000 that she was actually willing to pay? Now imagine that same rich lady went to the garage sale herself and bought it for $10, what is the paintings value?

Even in auctions, the final price is not set by the winner, it is set by the 1st loser. We rarely will ever know how high the winner was really willing to go.

[Pred]

what a bizarre thread

gives you a headache just reading it lol

reminds me of a dog chasing its tail :coo2l:

[noonoo1]

That will be some of the smoke and mirrors LOL

[DomainTalker]

there's also a difference between price and value.

I agree.

And, price will always align with perceived value.


Definition of a cynic:


"Someone who knows the price of everything - but, the value of nothing..." (Oscar Wylde).....:D


The OP's question was 'What qualities truly make keyword(s) valuable?'


Frank Schilling once said: 'Buy any domain that says something....". That struck me as spot on.


For me, in the end, words that describe a commercial product, or service, or process; words that evoke a concept; words that stimulate emotion; any words that move people to act, or react - words that communicate - are all potentially valuable domain words.


Also, value (and, therefore a solid price) can be created. Take the words: 'Last Minute.com'....These words may have no value on their own, unless they are linked to the idea of something people want (value)....In this case, the idea of a service that you may get cheap hotel deals by booking at the 'Last Minute'......Suddenly, the words 'Last Minute' have value, because they create a demand for something people are interested in.


My point is almost any words can be valuable, in a communication medium, like the internet - and command high prices from someone - if you can create an idea around it that equates to value for that person/business (this doesn't necessarily mean developing a domain - it can mean selling the idea of a valuable use of that domain to someone - eg iReport.com, or, Candy.com).


As domainers, so often we limit our strategy to trying to find/buy words that already have an understood price/value, but based on a limited criteria....Domainers often 'value' domains on some parked revenue multiple, or, on what another domainer has paid for a similar domain in the past....So 'market value' gets dumbed down to an endless inter-domainer feedback loop...Instead of looking at a domain's inherent value, as determined by what it could do.


Buy domains that say something - and sell that word(s)/idea to someone that values the idea of what it could do for them.

Price will align to that perceived value.

.

[Dave]

And, price will always align with perceived value.
Well, let me just say, that when the price aligns to my perceived value of the domains in your signature...watch out! :adore:

[gogo]

Value certainly can exist independent of a transaction - all kinds of things are evaluated for insurance and credit purposes, looking at similar market prices, replacement cost, depreciation etc.

It's a bit harder to put a value on something that is unique, as many domains are.

Never thought about it before - depreciation on domains - great to factor in when making an offer.

[noonoo1]

The value on the top names are set by the slick salesman and co-salesman, if you watched Rick working his stuff you could see this going on with AD.com. It really was a very interesting live video to watch.

[Scandiman]

Definition of a cynic:

"Someone who knows the price of everything - but, the value of nothing..." (Oscar Wylde).....:D

Beautiful quote :coo2l:



My point is almost any words can be valuable, in a communication medium, like the internet - and command high prices from someone - if you can create an idea around it that equates to value for that person/business (this doesn't necessarily mean developing a domain - it can mean selling the idea of a valuable use of that domain to someone - eg iReport.com, or, Candy.com).

Buy domains that say something - and sell that word(s)/idea to someone that values the idea of what it could do for them.

Price will align to that perceived value.


Sorting out how to connect these dots is a significant challenge the first time, subsequently it gets easier to refine.



As domainers, so often we limit our strategy to trying to find/buy words that already have an understood price/value, but based on a limited criteria....Domainers often 'value' domains on some parked revenue multiple, or, on what another domainer has paid for a similar domain in the past....So 'market value' gets dumbed down to an endless inter-domainer feedback loop...Instead of looking at a domain's inherent value, as determined by what it could do.


Domainer myopia is a business model, albeit a limited one.

[jasdon]

Dagersh, Scandiman, you're missing the point - the point being that a buyer can offer whatever they want - they can't force a sale; can't decide at what point a sale will be made - only the seller can do that.

[Dave]

Dagersh, Scandiman, you're missing the point - the point being that a buyer can offer whatever they want - they can't force a sale; can't decide at what point a sale will be made - only the seller can do that.
But only the buyer can decide how much of his/her money to hand over... :laugh:

As I said, it's really two sides of the same coin. We're both right.

[gogo]

The value on the top names are set by the slick salesman and co-salesman, if you watched Rick working his stuff you could see this going on with AD.com. It really was a very interesting live video to watch.

IMO there is truth in that - it's the halo effect - if a successful domainer is offering it for sale it must be good is what buyers think - they can look at the high prices of his previous sales and the impressive endusers and reckon he's offering another exclusive gem.


We seem to be having a semantic struggle in this thread about just what is a price and a value.

Frankly, seller and buyer agreeing can be BS - look at the Sedo sales that don't complete - and I've even read that soem modern art is used for money laundering, ie the high prices have hidden benefits to some.

[jasdon]

But only the buyer can decide how much of his/her money to hand over... :laugh:

As I said, it's really two sides of the same coin. We're both right.


Let me put it this way - candy.com probably has had offers from dozens of prospective buyers - none of those buyers could decide the value of the name, only the seller could. All the buyers could do is offer and hope.

If Rick Schwartz didn't want to sell for less than $3m, it doesn't matter how many people were willing to pay $2.9m, the value of the name was $3m as that was the highest valuation put on it by someone.

It might seem like two sides of the same coin but really it's two different coins. I can't force you to sell me something, I can only meet your valuation, whereas you as the seller has the ultimate decision on the value.

[vikrantjain22]

IMHO, The value of a domain would be the best price a domain holder is able to EXTRACT from a buyer, without having a heartburn, regret or an afterthought, post sale :)

[Scandiman]

Let me put it this way - candy.com probably has had offers from dozens of prospective buyers - none of those buyers could decide the value of the name, only the seller could. All the buyers could do is offer and hope.

If Rick Schwartz didn't want to sell for less than $3m, it doesn't matter how many people were willing to pay $2.9m, the value of the name was $3m as that was the highest valuation put on it by someone.

It might seem like two sides of the same coin but really it's two different coins. I can't force you to sell me something, I can only meet your valuation, whereas you as the seller has the ultimate decision on the value.

If it really worked that way then why stop at 3 million? Why not 30 million? Or better yet 3 billion? Because it would never sell. Sellers need to find the buyers limit just as the buyer needs to find the sellers. Often both need to compromise.

[jasdon]

If it really worked that way then why stop at 3 million? Why not 30 million? Or better yet 3 billion? Because it would never sell. Sellers need to find the buyers limit just as the buyer needs to find the sellers. Often both need to compromise.

Can a buyer force a seller to sell?

If you answer 'no', then you must also agree with me that the seller ultimately decides the value.

[Scandiman]

Can a buyer force a seller to sell?

If you answer 'no', then you must also agree with me that the seller ultimately decides the value.

False dilemma, there are other choices here.

Can a seller force a buyer to buy? No. Visit the marketplace here or any other domain forum to watch it in action.

Are sellers ever compelled by their circumstances to sell regardless of market conditions? Yes. Tax situations, bankruptcy, estate sales, etc.

Your thought process is great when the domain owner is completely financially solvent, has no need for the income, and is sitting on a very high quality domain that has great commercial potential, but that does not come close to describing the circumstances of all domain speculators. I invite you to visit the marketplace of any domain forum to see what I mean.

[jasdon]

False dilemma, there are other choices here.

Can a seller force a buyer to buy? No. Visit the marketplace here or any other domain forum to watch it in action.

Are sellers ever compelled by their circumstances to sell regardless of market conditions? Yes. Tax situations, bankruptcy, estate sales, etc.

Your thought process is great when the domain owner is completely financially solvent, has no need for the income, and is sitting on a very high quality domain that has great commercial potential, but that does not come close to describing the circumstances of all domain speculators. I invite you to visit the marketplace of any domain forum to see what I mean.

I fully understand what you're saying, but it doesn't alter the fact that, even though a seller may have to reduce his price/valuation to find a buyer, it is he and only he who can ensure a deal takes place - therefore it is the seller who decides the value. A buyer can decide how much he is willing to pay, a seller decides the value.

That's my last on the subject.

[newdomainer]

This is getting to be an interesting thread... lol

I share Jasdons logic.... you cannot be forced to sell a domain at any price therefore the seller does control the price at which that domain will be sold...

However, I only share the logic.. the reality on the other hand is where Scandi comes in..

A buyer will dictate the price he/she is willing to pay.. if you have only 1 buyer in the picture.. and you need the money - the buyer will dictate the price the domain is sold at.

Of course the seller (or should I say owner) ultimately controls whether or not that domain is sold... but to follow Jasdons theme; there would be an awful lot of unsold domains out there worth millions in the opinion of the owner until one day.. after not having sold a domain for months or years.. the true value of the domain is identified when it is sold for $60 on SEDO to help put food on the table...

We have all experienced this 'battle of wills' between buyer & seller (& we've been on both sides of the fence too... as buyers & sellers).. Sometimes you can't sell something worth $10,000 to someone for $5,000 because they don't value it at more than $2,000 themselves..

I had a derisory offer once for what was a very good domain... nothing strange about that but the offer was from a motivated buyer... The CEO of a fairly decent size company..
I withdrew from the negotiations because I didn't like his attitude... but the bottom line is that the value of most things are so subjective that you cannot control the price, just guide it the best you can...

I learnt many years ago that the value of anything is decided by how much someone will pay for it... and that remains true to this day...

Unfortunately for most of us here... I would say it is the buyer who decides the price in at least 7 out of 10 (actual) domain sales

The seller simply controls whether or not the domain is sold at all... but deciding not to sell a domain doesn't indicate its value...

[Scandiman]

I fully understand what you're saying, but it doesn't alter the fact that, even though a seller may have to reduce his price/valuation to find a buyer, it is he and only he who can ensure a deal takes place - therefore it is the seller who decides the value. A buyer can decide how much he is willing to pay, a seller decides the value.

That's my last on the subject.

Just as a buyer decides the value to themselves, a seller decides the value to themselves. Using the title "seller" assumes they actually want to sell, and their idea of value needs to be close to that of the buyer if they hope to have a sale.

I used the example of real estate earlier, here in the Sacramento region about 3/4 of the resale inventory is loan and/or tax foreclosure related. Lots of sellers who are compelled to sell by force of law, driving the prices through the floor until they connect to the same value perspective as the buyers. The seller may value their home at $500,000 because that is what they paid, but the buyers are saying $250,000 and that's the sales price because there is a whole lot more sellers than buyers.

[gogo]

Hey Jasdon CONGRATS ON YOUR 1000th post in this thread!!!

[jasdon]

Hey Jasdon CONGRATS ON YOUR 1000th post in this thread!!!

Thanks Gogo - I wouldn't have known :dontknow:

[Dave]

The seller simply controls whether or not the domain is sold at all... but deciding not to sell a domain doesn't indicate its value...
:sold: . . . or in many cases, NOT :sold:

Thanks, that's exactly my point. The "value" (if you believe in such a thing) is much closer to what the buyer is willing to pay if the seller actually wants to get the deal done, than it is to the price the seller puts on the object prior to finding a buyer. A price you can't sell at is not the value. So how can one say the seller alone is the one in charge of determining value? :dontknow:

I know, it's kind of ridiculous to keep going back and forth on this -- but hey, what are forums for anyway? :pie:

[gogo]

Thanks Gogo - I wouldn't have known :dontknow:


But you do now. So many surprising features become availabable when you hit 1000 on here - the larger default fonts, the helpful popups offering mobility aids and will-writing services...